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	<title>Comments on: Who knows, who cares?</title>
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		<title>By: alastair</title>
		<link>http://www.accmanpro.com/2008/12/31/who-knows-who-cares/comment-page-1/#comment-5494</link>
		<dc:creator>alastair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:34:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.accmanpro.com/?p=3795#comment-5494</guid>
		<description>You might argue that programming a computer is equally complex.  In fact it is not if you are expert in it, and surely that is the point.  Tax planners, computer programmers, quantum physicists, etc, are skilled at what they do - they gain an income from exploiting that skill, because there are people willing to pay them for it.

Is it possible to explain the essence of such complex things clearly - why yes of course it is - and that is a skill that some are able to exploit to make a living from.

The guardian tesco thing seemed to be more about the demonisation of tax avoidance and tax planning that Gordon and his mob are trying to engineer - tesco was simply trying to manage the political risk.  the guardian was hoist by its own hypocracy - quite right to. I don&#039;t buy that the guardian did not have the expertise - sounds like no more than a rather pathetic excuse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You might argue that programming a computer is equally complex.  In fact it is not if you are expert in it, and surely that is the point.  Tax planners, computer programmers, quantum physicists, etc, are skilled at what they do &#8211; they gain an income from exploiting that skill, because there are people willing to pay them for it.</p>
<p>Is it possible to explain the essence of such complex things clearly &#8211; why yes of course it is &#8211; and that is a skill that some are able to exploit to make a living from.</p>
<p>The guardian tesco thing seemed to be more about the demonisation of tax avoidance and tax planning that Gordon and his mob are trying to engineer &#8211; tesco was simply trying to manage the political risk.  the guardian was hoist by its own hypocracy &#8211; quite right to. I don&#039;t buy that the guardian did not have the expertise &#8211; sounds like no more than a rather pathetic excuse.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Lee</title>
		<link>http://www.accmanpro.com/2008/12/31/who-knows-who-cares/comment-page-1/#comment-5493</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 11:28:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.accmanpro.com/?p=3795#comment-5493</guid>
		<description>Alan says &quot;advanced tax planning undertaken today by most global companies is as intelligible to the average person as particle physics.&quot;

In fact most tax planning schemes are equally hard to follow.  This includes those punted at owner managers, company directors, property developers and everyone else keen to reduce their liability to IHT, NICs, CGT and SDLT.    As a result the promoters of such schemes will often tap into the taxpayer&#039;s greed and suggest that their accountant is &#039;only&#039; a general practitioner and &#039;this is all a bit beyond what they&#039;re used to really&#039;.  They suggest that accountants who don&#039;t follow them should simply trust the promoters. Occasionally the lure of a healthy commission takes over.....

As I have pointed out elsewhere this is a dangerous route for any accountant to follow.  Many prefer to either:
a) only work with genuinely independent and objective tax specialists; or
b) NOT get involved in promoting abusive avoidance schemes to their clients.

Either approach is justifiable.  The professional bodies discourage their members from advising on matters that are outside of their comfort zones. Contrary to the impression given by some promoters, an accountant will never be found negligent for failing to tell clients about the availability of sophisticated schemes he doesn&#039;t understand. And there is no obligation on him to devote time and effort trying to work them out either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan says &quot;advanced tax planning undertaken today by most global companies is as intelligible to the average person as particle physics.&quot;</p>
<p>In fact most tax planning schemes are equally hard to follow.  This includes those punted at owner managers, company directors, property developers and everyone else keen to reduce their liability to IHT, NICs, CGT and SDLT.    As a result the promoters of such schemes will often tap into the taxpayer&#039;s greed and suggest that their accountant is &#039;only&#039; a general practitioner and &#039;this is all a bit beyond what they&#039;re used to really&#039;.  They suggest that accountants who don&#039;t follow them should simply trust the promoters. Occasionally the lure of a healthy commission takes over&#8230;..</p>
<p>As I have pointed out elsewhere this is a dangerous route for any accountant to follow.  Many prefer to either:<br />
a) only work with genuinely independent and objective tax specialists; or<br />
b) NOT get involved in promoting abusive avoidance schemes to their clients.</p>
<p>Either approach is justifiable.  The professional bodies discourage their members from advising on matters that are outside of their comfort zones. Contrary to the impression given by some promoters, an accountant will never be found negligent for failing to tell clients about the availability of sophisticated schemes he doesn&#039;t understand. And there is no obligation on him to devote time and effort trying to work them out either.</p>
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		<title>By: Krupo</title>
		<link>http://www.accmanpro.com/2008/12/31/who-knows-who-cares/comment-page-1/#comment-5492</link>
		<dc:creator>Krupo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 08:54:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.accmanpro.com/?p=3795#comment-5492</guid>
		<description>Funny timing - back on my side of the pond the Toronto Star has this letter from the publisher - on page 1 - talking about their commitment to more investigative journalism and all the other good stuff you&#039;re calling for: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/560544&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/560544&lt;/a&gt;

Interestingly enough, the Star is run according to the wishes of its founder&#039;s will... details nicely summarized here: &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Star#Atkinson_Principles&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Star#Atkinso...&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny timing &#8211; back on my side of the pond the Toronto Star has this letter from the publisher &#8211; on page 1 &#8211; talking about their commitment to more investigative journalism and all the other good stuff you&#039;re calling for: <a href="http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/560544" rel="nofollow">http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/560544</a></p>
<p>Interestingly enough, the Star is run according to the wishes of its founder&#039;s will&#8230; details nicely summarized here: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Star#Atkinson_Principles" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Star#Atkinso&#8230;</a></p>
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		<title>By: A transparent 2009? &#124; called2account</title>
		<link>http://www.accmanpro.com/2008/12/31/who-knows-who-cares/comment-page-1/#comment-5491</link>
		<dc:creator>A transparent 2009? &#124; called2account</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 02:00:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.accmanpro.com/?p=3795#comment-5491</guid>
		<description>[...] Howlett, who was the man who got me into blogging, has a thoughtful posting on his AccMan blog this morning. Reflecting on Alan Rusbridger&#8217;s essay on the problems of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Howlett, who was the man who got me into blogging, has a thoughtful posting on his AccMan blog this morning. Reflecting on Alan Rusbridger&#8217;s essay on the problems of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Worstall</title>
		<link>http://www.accmanpro.com/2008/12/31/who-knows-who-cares/comment-page-1/#comment-5490</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Worstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 17:56:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.accmanpro.com/?p=3795#comment-5490</guid>
		<description>&quot;@richardbg @tim: what have your comments got to do with the essence of Rusbridger&#8217;s essay? Have you people got any clue about the importance of the topic? Is it your best to throw brickbats at the messenger who admits to difficulty in understanding the problems of reporting? Shame on you.&quot;

The essence? That Rusbridger and his journalists did an appalling job on that story. When I blogged it when it came out I had comments within the hour telling me that they&#039;d ballsed it up. It really isn&#039;t that the story was that complicated. It was those reporting it didn&#039;t have the first clue.

The importance of the topic? I make my living (or at least a decent chunk of it) writing about economics, taxes and the rest of it. Sure I know how important it is. Which is precisely why I&#039;d like to see people doing it rather better. A few pieces I&#039;d like to see in, say, The Guardian. What is tax incidence and what is the incidence of corporation tax? Why are we making people who earn minimum wage pay income tax? Richard Murphy&#039;s missing billions and the tax gap. Why aren&#039;t people prepared to point out his logical error? That a difference between headline rate and effective rate does not mean either avoidance or evasion: it can (and certainly does in part) mean that people are using the allowances that Parliament has expressly created for them to use.

Picture this. What would one of your actions be if you were working for a large media organisation researching a tax story? One of mine would be to go to that media organisations internal tax accountants and ask, &quot;Err, have I got this right?&quot;. As an editor I&#039;d certainly ask the in house boffins to look it over. Neither happened. This isn&#039;t &quot;problems of reporting&quot; this is &quot;problems with reporters and editors.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;@richardbg @tim: what have your comments got to do with the essence of Rusbridger&rsquo;s essay? Have you people got any clue about the importance of the topic? Is it your best to throw brickbats at the messenger who admits to difficulty in understanding the problems of reporting? Shame on you.&quot;</p>
<p>The essence? That Rusbridger and his journalists did an appalling job on that story. When I blogged it when it came out I had comments within the hour telling me that they&#039;d ballsed it up. It really isn&#039;t that the story was that complicated. It was those reporting it didn&#039;t have the first clue.</p>
<p>The importance of the topic? I make my living (or at least a decent chunk of it) writing about economics, taxes and the rest of it. Sure I know how important it is. Which is precisely why I&#039;d like to see people doing it rather better. A few pieces I&#039;d like to see in, say, The Guardian. What is tax incidence and what is the incidence of corporation tax? Why are we making people who earn minimum wage pay income tax? Richard Murphy&#039;s missing billions and the tax gap. Why aren&#039;t people prepared to point out his logical error? That a difference between headline rate and effective rate does not mean either avoidance or evasion: it can (and certainly does in part) mean that people are using the allowances that Parliament has expressly created for them to use.</p>
<p>Picture this. What would one of your actions be if you were working for a large media organisation researching a tax story? One of mine would be to go to that media organisations internal tax accountants and ask, &quot;Err, have I got this right?&quot;. As an editor I&#039;d certainly ask the in house boffins to look it over. Neither happened. This isn&#039;t &quot;problems of reporting&quot; this is &quot;problems with reporters and editors.&quot;</p>
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		<title>By: Dennnis Howlett</title>
		<link>http://www.accmanpro.com/2008/12/31/who-knows-who-cares/comment-page-1/#comment-5489</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennnis Howlett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 17:04:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.accmanpro.com/?p=3795#comment-5489</guid>
		<description>@emily: interesting though that idea may be, there is no evidence to suggest what you&#039;re saying is true. Back in the day (as they say) I had a client who told me that if tax was 1/2% he&#039;d still want to avoid it. And we did. He was a devout Catholic who tithed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@emily: interesting though that idea may be, there is no evidence to suggest what you&#039;re saying is true. Back in the day (as they say) I had a client who told me that if tax was 1/2% he&#039;d still want to avoid it. And we did. He was a devout Catholic who tithed.</p>
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		<title>By: Emily Coltman</title>
		<link>http://www.accmanpro.com/2008/12/31/who-knows-who-cares/comment-page-1/#comment-5488</link>
		<dc:creator>Emily Coltman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:43:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.accmanpro.com/?p=3795#comment-5488</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve made the point in comments on Richard Murphy&#039;s blog before now, that tax avoidance is fed by government spending policy.

When taxpayers see John Prescott with two Jaguars, when politicians seem to do nothing but call each other names, that&#039;s enough to make anyone say, &quot;What am I paying tax for?&quot;

Some of my fellow Quakers choose to withhold the portion of their tax that will be spent on defence.  I haven&#039;t chosen to do that.  But I do think that if &quot;the man in the street&quot; could have more say in how taxpayers&#039; money is spent, there might be less tax avoidance.

M</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#039;ve made the point in comments on Richard Murphy&#039;s blog before now, that tax avoidance is fed by government spending policy.</p>
<p>When taxpayers see John Prescott with two Jaguars, when politicians seem to do nothing but call each other names, that&#039;s enough to make anyone say, &quot;What am I paying tax for?&quot;</p>
<p>Some of my fellow Quakers choose to withhold the portion of their tax that will be spent on defence.  I haven&#039;t chosen to do that.  But I do think that if &quot;the man in the street&quot; could have more say in how taxpayers&#039; money is spent, there might be less tax avoidance.</p>
<p>M</p>
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		<title>By: Dennnis Howlett</title>
		<link>http://www.accmanpro.com/2008/12/31/who-knows-who-cares/comment-page-1/#comment-5487</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennnis Howlett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 15:23:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.accmanpro.com/?p=3795#comment-5487</guid>
		<description>@richardgb: It would seem we are probably on two ends of the same see-saw.

I am only too well aware that when a person takes a position, others will seek to chop it down and the prime weapon is one that seeks to distract through arguments that deflect. Unfortunately, that axe usually often shows itself to be somewhat blunt, tainted as it often is with its own flavour of hypocrisy.

Even so, the counter discussion around big/small/whatever government is not something from which I would shirk. Check what I&#039;ve had to say in the past about HMRC BS, ineptitude etc.

Better still, check Tony Collins at CW and his 10+ year campaign on government IT project failures, a topic around which I have some knowledge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@richardgb: It would seem we are probably on two ends of the same see-saw.</p>
<p>I am only too well aware that when a person takes a position, others will seek to chop it down and the prime weapon is one that seeks to distract through arguments that deflect. Unfortunately, that axe usually often shows itself to be somewhat blunt, tainted as it often is with its own flavour of hypocrisy.</p>
<p>Even so, the counter discussion around big/small/whatever government is not something from which I would shirk. Check what I&#039;ve had to say in the past about HMRC BS, ineptitude etc.</p>
<p>Better still, check Tony Collins at CW and his 10+ year campaign on government IT project failures, a topic around which I have some knowledge.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard G Brown</title>
		<link>http://www.accmanpro.com/2008/12/31/who-knows-who-cares/comment-page-1/#comment-5486</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard G Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 15:01:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.accmanpro.com/?p=3795#comment-5486</guid>
		<description>@dennis: I think we are in agreement about the value of being able to explain complicated issues in a straightforward and accurate way.   Unfortunately, Rusbridger - and the Guardian - are tainted by hypocrisy.  This makes them unsuitable leaders for this cause.

However, I would support your campaign to bring to wider public attention the complexities of modern taxation.  It is a fascinating topic and one that would be eye-opening to many.

You should be careful, though...  don&#039;t assume everybody will reach the same conclusions as you.  The more people hear about tax avoidance, the more they are reminded about taxation in general - and its flip-side, government spending... truly an area deserving of greater scrutiny.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@dennis: I think we are in agreement about the value of being able to explain complicated issues in a straightforward and accurate way.   Unfortunately, Rusbridger &#8211; and the Guardian &#8211; are tainted by hypocrisy.  This makes them unsuitable leaders for this cause.</p>
<p>However, I would support your campaign to bring to wider public attention the complexities of modern taxation.  It is a fascinating topic and one that would be eye-opening to many.</p>
<p>You should be careful, though&#8230;  don&#039;t assume everybody will reach the same conclusions as you.  The more people hear about tax avoidance, the more they are reminded about taxation in general &#8211; and its flip-side, government spending&#8230; truly an area deserving of greater scrutiny.</p>
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		<title>By: Dennnis Howlett</title>
		<link>http://www.accmanpro.com/2008/12/31/who-knows-who-cares/comment-page-1/#comment-5485</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennnis Howlett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 14:42:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.accmanpro.com/?p=3795#comment-5485</guid>
		<description>@richardgb: I am not pretending at all. If you read carefully you might find that I am calling into question the difficulty with which the &#039;man in the street&#039; &#039;Joe the plumber&#039; - whatever you want to call him, has genuine access to information that is of importance to us all.

I will admit I have no insight into Rusbridger&#039;s mind but I am prepared to take at face value what I interpret as a fair exercise in explaining just how hard it is to get facts together in a form we can all understand. As Rusbridger said: (paraphrased for this purpose) expertise needs to be finely honed in order to dissect let alone comprehend the reality of tax avoidance.

As a person who once made a handsome living that way I know only too well of which he speaks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@richardgb: I am not pretending at all. If you read carefully you might find that I am calling into question the difficulty with which the &#039;man in the street&#039; &#039;Joe the plumber&#039; &#8211; whatever you want to call him, has genuine access to information that is of importance to us all.</p>
<p>I will admit I have no insight into Rusbridger&#039;s mind but I am prepared to take at face value what I interpret as a fair exercise in explaining just how hard it is to get facts together in a form we can all understand. As Rusbridger said: (paraphrased for this purpose) expertise needs to be finely honed in order to dissect let alone comprehend the reality of tax avoidance.</p>
<p>As a person who once made a handsome living that way I know only too well of which he speaks.</p>
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