Numbers matter in on-demand

by admin on March 11, 2009

in General,Innovation

It was interesting to see that a new vendor called carrytheone has developed an integration between KashFlow and OSCommerce for those needing seamless integration between e-commerce solutions and on-demand accounting. It is the first of what they promise will be a stream of integrations that may include Zen Cart (my personal open source favourite) CREloaded and oscMax. It’s a good idea and one to be welcomed.

How long carrytheone can survive as a separate entity remains to be seen because in reality, such integrations are features that any competent developer can mimic. What is more worrying are claims made on the site about numbers of user – presumably in the KashFlow universe. The website talks about:

The UK’s leading online accounting software with 15,000 small business accounts.

That’s not true at two levels. First up, WinWeb passed that figure at least 2 years ago. I know that because I was following the stats at that time. It reached 10,000 users in June 2006 and passed the 200,000 mark in May, 2007. Second, when I asked Duane Jackson, KashFlow’s CEO to verify the number he said:

@dahowlett whichever you like. 15k isn’t my number. we have ~3k paying. >20k through the door over the years

Duane may not care too much about such things but when a company is making claims, it would be hoped they are in the right ballpark. There is enough BS talked in the software industry as it is. carrytheone must have got the numbers from somewhere and whether KashFlow likes it or not, I’m pointing the finger at them.

What Duane doesn’t get – and he has said to me that he’s seen four different numbers quoted at carrytheone – is that market perceptions are formed from, among other things, numbers. So let’s take his 20K figure as a starting point. What we can deduce from that is the conversion rate to paying customer is around 15%. That’s not shabby but is way off other numbers I see frequently quoted running in the 25-32% range by other vendors. In other words, regardless of claims about market share, on its current stated run rate, KashFlow will find itself eclipsed by others.

Does that matter? Yes it does. The on-demand accounting market is still nascent although there is plenty of evidence to show that it is in strong growth mode. That means we do not yet know the winners and losers even though I’d agree there is plenty to play for in the UK market alone. When thinking about recommendation for instance, professionals want to know whether clients will be left high and dry. Like it or not, when someone else runs your data, that risk exists and in markets of this kind, it is difficult to be certain what will happen to any of the players.

Duane defends the uncertainty by claiming that:

Our API is public http://is.gd/hFbz – anyone can write apps for it. Doesn’t make them “partners” or make us responsible 4 them

I had to laugh. That’s the SAP defense. Anyone who knows about SAP partners also knows that certain of those partners represent a significant source of problem for that company and its poor implementation reputation. I have long argued that software vendors have a real responsibility for partners in their ecosystem.There are many ways to achieve that.

Simply saying anyone can grab a public API and then wash their hands is not good enough. You cannot point to others who may be using your API, shout ‘benefit’ and ‘value’ on the one hand and shrug on the other. It’s irresponsible. At the very least, you should have a certification program in place so that you can exercise a measure of quality control and influence what is said about you.

KashFlow has been pimping a number of ‘partnerships’ in recent times. Good luck to them. But if this is a demonstration of the company’s laissez-faire attitude to those partners then be warned. Sloppy partnerships always lead to trouble down the road. No exceptions.

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@Duane - Really glad you agree 100% on the clarit issue. However, I really can't agree with the other things you say about Dennis. You saw I pulled him up on the idea of "giving you a slap", because that makes it to personal. You've taken it a couple of stages further describing "his (possibly Sangria fuelled) unpredictability". I'm really not convinced that taking this personal and starting some sort of vendetta is very productive.

Hi David,

My apparent attitude in the piece above is a creation of Dennis so that he can “slap” me and play the role of the wise old man teaching this jumped-up upstart a lesson for his pugnacious approach to Sage. It’s not based in any reality as you or I would understand it. See here for the actual context of the conversation Dennis quotes.

I agree 100% with your comments and will be asking the company concerned to correct or clarify the number.

A very good point for debate that Dennis raises is about API certification. There's a lot of discussion to be had around that point and it's not something that I'm aware has been publicly debated in the past in the SaaS accounting community. It's exactly debates around that kind of thing that in my opinion (although it 'doesn’t count for diddly squat') someone like Dennis should be perfectly positioned to host.

Unfortunately, his personal attacks on me and especially this particular post, show that he's not able to be as independent or objective as he'd like to have us believe.

To demonstrate the point (and I'm obviously biased here!) - take a look at this recent post. Now I'd have though it'd be highly relevant to the readership of this blog that the accounting element of the product is actually KashFlow and the data used for benchmarking is extracted via our API. But that doesn't get a mention, I suspect because of Dennis' attitude towards me.

I’ll now be joining the ever-growing club of people and companies that avoid interacting with Dennis due to his (possibly Sangria fuelled) unpredictability

@duane - you represent your company so anything you say must be taken in that light. You set policy and direction and it is that which I question. As to style - that can always be debated and I defy anyone to seriously hold out objectivity as a reality but please address the facts first.

As to the issue of what powers MyCake - as you know this is a non-exclusive arrangement that includes a number of technologies. Kashflow does not need to be the engine. That wasn't the point of the piece.

As I've said before, I have no axe to grind regarding any particular company but readers have market issues on which they want clarity. By definition that cannot come from any particular vendor but from those who observe from the sidelines.

I even copied the spelling mistake - doh! That quote was (e.g. time for a slap).

Sometime around 11:00 this morning, after the @Dennis comment and just before the @Stuart comment, I posted the words below, but Dennis's blog decided to eat it somehow. Here it is again (thank heavens I saved a copy):

@Dennis - some of the language (e.g. time for a lapp) you are using towards Duane is in danger of overpowering the very important message in this post - I'd lighten up if I were you...

@Duane - I'm really confused by you attitude on this. If a partner says you've got 15,000 customers and you haven't, that's misinformation. You can't just say the APIs public... that's a different issue. Whatever code they've written to connect another product results in customers who set up companies on Kashflow - you must be able to track those companies and whether they are actively using your system. You say you have 3000 paying customers - great. then you say 20,000 through the door... does that mean lots o dormant companies where people have tried but decided not to buy? In any case, I come back to the fact that you should sort our the development partner and get them to publish the definitive facts. As Dennis is saying, we need clarity in the online accounting market, to help build the credibility for all of us.

Winweb are now well past the 200,000 mark Den.

In a recent interview with Business XL: http://www.businessxl.co.uk/businessxl-magazine/b...

Stefan went on record with the turnover, which when you consider until very recently winweb was in the main £FREE for basic users, gives you an idea of their numbers.

The claim to be: The UK’s leading online accounting software with 15,000 small business accounts. I guess it must be wrong, at best maybe the words ‘one of’ should be incorporated into the statement? Looses its impact then though!

The SaaS players that I am watching are those who are quietly doing their thing and not shouting about it, they I guess are the ones who will ultimately prevail, not those who make all the noise!

On another point, I was not sure if I liked the Kashfow send us your competitors disks for a bonfire or not, then I realized I read it a while ago and still remember it, so I decided I really like it, and am now wondering when they have the bonfire will it be open to the public and have hotdogs?

I wonder, send me your accountants accounts and I will do the first year for £FREE? Then again maybe not, I would probably go bust!

Nicely balanced article Dennis. BTW you seem to be mellowing!

Ahh, just seen your post on Twitter linking to this blog post:
OK @DuaneJackson: time for a slap: <a href="http://bit.ly/FH9hQ" target="_blank">http://bit.ly/FH9hQ

I thought it was something silly like that. I'll leave you to it. Have fun!

@duane - how many time do I have to tell you - you don't get to be the arbiter of what matters and what's important to people who make decisions? You're a vendor so your opinion doesn't count for diddly squat. Far from being a slow news day - you're the guy pimping stories so please, don't try tell me what matters in the market.

And please don't try twist this to 'out of context' BS on me - I have the entire stream on this. We can go there if you want.

I don't put words in anyone's mouth - they do it for themselves, usually to good effect.

Bottom line - wanna play in the big league? Grow up.

and...if you want to dish it, then please be prepared to get it back - in spades.

In the words of the wise - as you sow, so shall you reap.

I'm going to have to assume that this entire post is some sort of demonstration on how to quote someone out of context to give a impression of them saying something that they werent?

If so, well done. You've done an outstanding job of it! : )

To illustrate just one point, my quote about partners was in response to you putting words in my mouth:

@DuaneJackson - so in other words you have no control over your partners' ability to quote correct numbers?

Must be a slow news day or something!

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