Single ledger erosion of professional accounting software

by admin on February 23, 2010

in Cloud Computing/SaaS

Adrian Pearson, senior partner at a Xero based practice has recently been schmoozed by Hamish Edwards, one of Xero’s co-founders and himself a practitioner. Adrian writes:

Most of the talk was about how Xero could help us with the process of converting clients from other systems, such as Sage and QuickBooks but we also discussed Xero’s broad development roadmap.  Hamish revealed that one of the things they were working towards is what he described as a “One Ledger” concept.

Now, I must admit that I didn’t grasp the significance at the time but now, having had chance to think it through, it strikes me that One Ledger could have profound implications for most small accountancy practices.

aaah – the penny is starting to drop. Read on:

Well, the big idea (and it’s not rocket science) is to use the same data set (the client’s) for the production of year-end “final” accounts rather than what currently happens – which is that the accountant takes the client’s accounting data and transfers it into his own software for further processing and final accounts production.  Using the One Ledger approach, the need for the accountant to produce separate working papers is eliminated, as is the chore of revisiting the client’s data after the final accounts are produced to make adjustments to correct the opening balances for the new financial year.  The client’s accounting data IS the working papers and IS the lead schedules.

Kerrching! As Adrian says, it isn’t rocket science and neither is it a new idea. This is a natural outgrowth of the SaaS model and something I have been predicting for at least four years. The implications are obvious. Out go the Viztopia’s, IRIS’s, Sage etc of this world while Xero is able to upsell to its growing customer base. That’s highly disruptive but necessary. Well…not quite. As Adrian correctly points out:

I can see some potential problems – such as how to get the tax provision into a set of limited company accounts without first importing accounts information into the practice’s corporation tax software – but I can also see big benefits for both the client and the accountant.  The accountant’s role will change though, to one of reviewing and correcting the client’s data before the client files the accounts, instead of owning the whole process – and charging accordingly.

This is a transitional but knotty problem. Building tax software is not trivial so it makes sense to partner with specialist providers that can offer appropriate access. But even then, that’s only part of the story. Adrian talks about working papers but they often need supplementing with unstructured data – notes if you will, that explain transactions. The logical way to overcome this is through tagging and not, as Xero are suggesting through some other coding structure. If they go the coding route then they’re opening themselves up to all sorts of mapping issues. If they use tags, then the process becomes a whole lot easier because tags can live independently of the chart of accounts. They can also be used for multiple purposes and in combination, allowing the tying between structured (ie accounts data) and unstructured (the notes that support the reasoning behind allocations.) However, that’s not Nirvana either because just as there taxonomy issues around XBRL, tagging magnifies that problem.

Another approach might be through open APIs. I am less confident of this working as a long term solution because every vendor will still have to map back to proprietary systems.

Still another is as Xero thinks, a ‘single ledger.’ That’s been a feature of best in class accounting software for 30+ years. The problem has come in structuring charts of account that retain their flexibility to accommodate change as it occurs. That’s another reason I believe tags are a better way to go. Simply adding more numbers to a COA is incredibly inefficient and time consuming over time. The industry requires some serious innovation here, not a retreading of past failed efforts.

The first vendor that manages to crack this nut is going to be in a very strong position to make the professional’s life a whole lot easier. SaaS accounting is on its first iteration. Vendors like Xero, Kashflow and others are offering client dashboards. That’s an interim solution to the need for dramatically reducing compliance cost. Xero’s roadmap is going in the right direction but it will be in the execution where they will win or lose. The company’s development choices now will shape its future and as we have seen in the past, those solutions can leave the customer with great accounting but something that’s the equivalent of concrete. Once it’s laid down, it’s a helluva job to dig up.

Of course – that’s not the end of the story. There is MUCH more to come.

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Very interesting discussion here, Dennis. As a accounting professional and Xero user, I have started looking at this issue and attempting to come up with a workaround solution until someone comes up with a real tech solution. See my blog article here on Getting GIFI woth Xero - http://www.xerousers.com/group/xerocanuck/forum...

Very interesting discussion here, Dennis. As a accounting professional and Xero user, I have started looking at this issue and attempting to come up with a workaround solution until someone comes up with a real tech solution. See my blog article here on Getting GIFI woth Xero - http://www.xerousers.com/group/xerocanuck/forum/to...

Dennis,I am just a client of accounting not a professional. Trying to manage a large complex programme of work with multiple contributers and requirement to report on the finances in many different ways, it struck us (the team) talking about it that instead of coding it would be better to have tags. Did a search on accounting software and tags and ended up at your blog. We currently use Sage and it doesnt do what we want. Given you think that tags are a better way to go, you as a professional have presumably a good view of whats available - is there accounting software that is tag orientated ?(Handling turnover of about £6 million, staff of about 100)ThanksSimon

Dennis,I am just a client of accounting not a professional. Trying to manage a large complex programme of work with multiple contributers and requirement to report on the finances in many different ways, it struck us (the team) talking about it that instead of coding it would be better to have tags. Did a search on accounting software and tags and ended up at your blog. We currently use Sage and it doesnt do what we want. Given you think that tags are a better way to go, you as a professional have presumably a good view of whats available - is there accounting software that is tag orientated ?(Handling turnover of about £6 million, staff of about 100)ThanksSimon

Dennis,
I am just a client of accounting not a professional. Trying to manage a large complex programme of work with multiple contributers and requirement to report on the finances in many different ways, it struck us (the team) talking about it that instead of coding it would be better to have tags. Did a search on accounting software and tags and ended up at your blog.

We currently use Sage and it doesnt do what we want. Given you think that tags are a better way to go, you as a professional have presumably a good view of whats available - is there accounting software that is tag orientated ?

(Handling turnover of about £6 million, staff of about 100)

Thanks

Simon

I'm getting confused with your thinking. There is no technical impediment for sure because much has already been done - it just hasn't shifted from one place to another. But there are massive issues elsewhere that impact the client whether they like it or not and will continue to do so for some time to come.Re: Your second para - that's a totally different topic I've written about for over 5 years. However, as we have seen, the level of disintermediation remains low. But even then - what disintermediation are we talking about? How does providing benchmarking information disintermediate? It doesn't. It does something completely different.Outright/FreeAgent...others yes - but they're not claiming tax compliance but something else. And thank goodness they don't because they're not specialists in that area. At least not yet. You could argue Intuit did this for real some time back with the free version of its tax product. But oh - hang on a moment - it ain't in the cloud so it doesn't count?But none of that is relevant to this discussion.

If you're talking a channel discussion Dennis that's one thing. If the software vendor's strategy involved professional partners as recommender's and advocates then, yes, they're still integral.From an operations perspective, however, SaaS accounting enables an exposing of data and an integration with third party services that do in-fact enable disintermediation of professionals. Witness Freshbooks with their benchmarking reports, witness Outright with it's built in taxation calculations....

OK Rod - so now you have to fess up. Offline is good for me.

yep: they're on my 'cease and desist' list

@ben: you say: 'There is no real impediment right now to disintermediating accountants' - yes: sounds right but in this case you have no clue what you're talking about. Leave it to those that do.And...watch for a major announcement - subject to all the last minute hurdle swaps etc...

Adrian - ping me offline. Keen to chat about this....

Adrian - understood. And that world is here now IMHO. There is no real impediment right now to disintermediating accountants, yes that would be easier if (in this example) Xero implmented taxation calculations at the client application end but even without that it's not a major leap to go solo...

Hi Ben, getting data from a client's accounting data file into an accountancy practice's own systems is not the issue. So, as integrated as Acclipse may be, it is only solving a "problem" that can be negotiated in 10 minutes by importing a TB.What I was talking about is a new world where clients have the power to take their accountant out of the equation, should they wish to. Where the accountant does remain involved (and I believe they should), his or her role then changes dramatically.

Dennis - I just got a pingback from these guys: http://www.accountants-directory.info/?p=352 who seem to be passing of your post as their own?

I suspect we're closer than may have first appeared :)

I'd prefer to take this one offline as there is some IP involved here. But...in REALLY simple terms you can think of say: 'Revenue' as a well understood tag. The same is not true for say 001, 1001, 10001...you get the picture? As to 'sloppy' - well yes but that's not as big a deal as you might think. But then as I said, this is a lot bigger than simply codes.The risk with code mapping is that the professional works around with spreadsheets, creating yet another problem.

Hi Dennis,Tell us more about why you think tagging is the right way? The problem we see with tags is they are 'sloppier' than mapping. Tags are great for content when you want to group things together in different ways, but for numbers the sum of all tags can add up to more than 100%.We've done a lot of work to make mapping very easy, so we think we've cracked it but very keen to get your thoughts. We should have some vids up in a few weeks.CheersRod

Dennis - I just got a pingback from these guys: http://www.accountants-directory.info/?p=352 who seem to be passing off your post as their own?

yep: they're on my 'cease and desist' list

Dennis - I just got a pingback from these guys: http://www.accountants-directory.info/?p=352 who seem to be passing off your post as their own?

yep: they're on my 'cease and desist' list

Long winded or not, this isn't trivial and neither is it the future. It's an unmet requirement that stretches back many years - unless you want to be locked in.It's not data access, it's about consuming and augmenting data for different purposes. Trust me Ben, I know this stuff having been at the sharp end from 1984 through 1993 and then seeing scenarios around this ever since.

Dennis - surely your post is a very long winded way of saying that the future is an entirely integrated client and back office or practice management solution that allows seamless data access from both perspectives.If so then it's already happening with Xero and Acclipse integrated - http://www.acclipse.co.nz/for_accountants/produ.....

Hi Dennis,Tell us more about why you think tagging is the right way? The problem we see with tags is they are 'sloppier' than mapping. Tags are great for content when you want to group things together in different ways, but for numbers the sum of all tags can add up to more than 100%.We've done a lot of work to make mapping very easy, so we think we've cracked it but very keen to get your thoughts. We should have some vids up in a few weeks.CheersRod

I'd prefer to take this one offline as there is some IP involved here. But...in REALLY simple terms you can think of say: 'Revenue' as a well understood tag. The same is not true for say 001, 1001, 10001...you get the picture? As to 'sloppy' - well yes but that's not as big a deal as you might think. But then as I said, this is a lot bigger than simply codes.The risk with code mapping is that the professional works around with spreadsheets, creating yet another problem.

I suspect we're closer than may have first appeared :)

OK Rod - so now you have to fess up. Offline is good for me.

Hi Dennis,

Tell us more about why you think tagging is the right way?

The problem we see with tags is they are 'sloppier' than mapping. Tags are great for content when you want to group things together in different ways, but for numbers the sum of all tags can add up to more than 100%.

We've done a lot of work to make mapping very easy, so we think we've cracked it but very keen to get your thoughts. We should have some vids up in a few weeks.

Cheers

Rod

I'd prefer to take this one offline as there is some IP involved here. But...in REALLY simple terms you can think of say: 'Revenue' as a well understood tag. The same is not true for say 001, 1001, 10001...you get the picture? As to 'sloppy' - well yes but that's not as big a deal as you might think. But then as I said, this is a lot bigger than simply codes.

The risk with code mapping is that the professional works around with spreadsheets, creating yet another problem.

I suspect we're closer than may have first appeared :)

OK Rod - so now you have to fess up. Offline is good for me.

Just a quick update on my current status Dennis: I am not now senior partner at the accounting practice. I have taken a step back to pursue other interests (particularly a nascent Saas app that addresses this very issue). I am still involved at the practice though, so maybe "founder" might be a better tag for me.

Dennis - surely your post is a very long winded way of saying that the future is an entirely integrated client and back office or practice management solution that allows seamless data access from both perspectives.If so then it's already happening with Xero and Acclipse integrated - http://www.acclipse.co.nz/for_accountants/produ...

Long winded or not, this isn't trivial and neither is it the future. It's an unmet requirement that stretches back many years - unless you want to be locked in.It's not data access, it's about consuming and augmenting data for different purposes. Trust me Ben, I know this stuff having been at the sharp end from 1984 through 1993 and then seeing scenarios around this ever since.On the basis of what I've seen, Acclipse is doing part of what's required but missing some big chunks.

Hi Ben, getting data from a client's accounting data file into an accountancy practice's own systems is not the issue. So, as integrated as Acclipse may be, it is only solving a "problem" that can be negotiated in 10 minutes by importing a TB.What I was talking about is a new world where clients have the power to take their accountant out of the equation, should they wish to. Where the accountant does remain involved (and I believe they should), his or her role then changes dramatically.

Adrian - understood. And that world is here now IMHO. There is no real impediment right now to disintermediating accountants, yes that would be easier if (in this example) Xero implmented taxation calculations at the client application end but even without that it's not a major leap to go solo...

@ben: you say: 'There is no real impediment right now to disintermediating accountants' - yes: sounds right but in this case you have no clue what you're talking about. Leave it to those that do.And...watch for a major announcement - subject to all the last minute hurdle swaps etc...

If you're talking a channel discussion Dennis that's one thing. If the software vendor's strategy involved professional partners as recommender's and advocates then, yes, they're still integral.From an operations perspective, however, SaaS accounting enables an exposing of data and an integration with third party services that do in-fact enable disintermediation of professionals. Witness Freshbooks with their benchmarking reports, witness Outright with it's built in taxation calculations....

I'm getting confused with your thinking. There is no technical impediment for sure because much has already been done - it just hasn't shifted from one place to another. But there are massive issues elsewhere that impact the client whether they like it or not and will continue to do so for some time to come.Re: Your second para - that's a totally different topic I've written about for over 5 years. However, as we have seen, the level of disintermediation remains low. But even then - what disintermediation are we talking about? How does providing benchmarking information disintermediate? It doesn't. It does something completely different.Outright/FreeAgent...others yes - but they're not claiming tax compliance but something else. And thank goodness they don't because they're not specialists in that area. At least not yet. You could argue Intuit did this for real some time back with the free version of its tax product. But oh - hang on a moment - it ain't in the cloud so it doesn't count?But none of that is relevant to this discussion.

Adrian - ping me offline. Keen to chat about this....

Dennis - surely your post is a very long winded way of saying that the future is an entirely integrated client and back office or practice management solution that allows seamless data access from both perspectives.

If so then it's already happening with Xero and Acclipse integrated - http://www.acclipse.co.nz/for_accountants/products...

Long winded or not, this isn't trivial and neither is it the future. It's an unmet requirement that stretches back many years - unless you want to be locked in.

It's not data access, it's about consuming and augmenting data for different purposes. Trust me Ben, I know this stuff having been at the sharp end from 1984 through 1993 and then seeing scenarios around this ever since.

On the basis of what I've seen, Acclipse is doing part of what's required but missing some big chunks.

Hi Ben, getting data from a client's accounting data file into an accountancy practice's own systems is not the issue. So, as integrated as Acclipse may be, it is only solving a "problem" that can be negotiated in 10 minutes by importing a TB.

What I was talking about is a new world where clients have the power to take their accountant out of the equation, should they wish to. Where the accountant does remain involved (and I believe they should), his or her role then changes dramatically.

Adrian - understood. And that world is here now IMHO. There is no real impediment right now to disintermediating accountants, yes that would be easier if (in this example) Xero implmented taxation calculations at the client application end but even without that it's not a major leap to go solo...

@ben: you say: 'There is no real impediment right now to disintermediating accountants' - yes: sounds right but in this case you have no clue what you're talking about. Leave it to those that do.

And...watch for a major announcement - subject to all the last minute hurdle swaps etc...

If you're talking a channel discussion Dennis that's one thing. If the software vendor's strategy involved professional partners as recommender's and advocates then, yes, they're still integral.

From an operations perspective, however, SaaS accounting enables an exposing of data and an integration with third party services that do in-fact enable disintermediation of professionals. Witness Freshbooks with their benchmarking reports, witness Outright with it's built in taxation calculations....

I'm getting confused with your thinking. There is no technical impediment for sure because much has already been done - it just hasn't shifted from one place to another. But there are massive issues elsewhere that impact the client whether they like it or not and will continue to do so for some time to come.

Re: Your second para - that's a totally different topic I've written about for over 5 years. However, as we have seen, the level of disintermediation remains low. But even then - what disintermediation are we talking about? How does providing benchmarking information disintermediate? It doesn't. It does something completely different.

Outright/FreeAgent...others yes - but they're not claiming tax compliance but something else. And thank goodness they don't because they're not specialists in that area. At least not yet. You could argue Intuit did this for real some time back with the free version of its tax product. But oh - hang on a moment - it ain't in the cloud so it doesn't count?

But none of that is relevant to this discussion.

Adrian - ping me offline. Keen to chat about this....

Just a quick update on my current status Dennis: I am not now senior partner at the accounting practice. I have taken a step back to pursue other interests (particularly a nascent Saas app that addresses this very issue). I am still involved at the practice though, so maybe "founder" might be a better tag for me.

Just a quick update on my current status Dennis: I am not now senior partner at the accounting practice. I have taken a step back to pursue other interests (particularly a nascent Saas app that addresses this very issue). I am still involved at the practice though, so maybe "founder" might be a better tag for me.

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